360: Chasing Dreams Not Exhaustion w/ Dr. Leigha Saunders

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Courtney Townley 0:00
Welcome to the Grace and Grit Podcast made for women who want their healthiest years to be ahead of them. Not behind them. Join your host Courtney Townley right now. As she breaks down the fairy tale health story, you have been chasing all of your life, indispensable action steps and lasting change.

Courtney Townley 0:28
Hello, my friends and welcome to the Grace & Grit Podcast. This is your host, Courtney Townley. As always thank you so much for tuning into this show.

Courtney Townley 0:36
Before we get started today, I wanted to give you a quick reminder that I am hosting a free one hour masterclass on May 29, May 31, and June 1, called Women’s Health Reimagined. This class is specifically designed for women who are feeling overwhelmed by all the information coming at them around what they could or should be doing to improve their health and well being.

Courtney Townley 1:03
Because let’s face it, ladies, there is a lot coming at us. I’ll be sharing a four part framework to help participants ditch overwhelm, and short for themselves with a whole lot more consistency and ease. So if this is something that resonates for you, that you feel would be useful to you. If you head on over to graceandgrit.com/reimagine. You can choose one of three dates to attend this class. And I’ll see you there I’m looking forward to it. Once again, that URL is graceandgrit.com/reimagine.

Courtney Townley 1:40
Now for today’s episode, we talk a lot about sleep and restoration here on the grace and grit Podcast and for good reason. Sleep is where so much of the magic that keeps us healthy takes place. And there’s so many reasons why we struggle to get enough good quality sleep, especially at midlife. So enter my guest today Dr. Leigha Saunders, a naturopathic physician who specializes in helping women get better sleep, so they can spend more time on what truly matters most to them.

Courtney Townley 2:10
With over a decade of experience in women’s health, Leigha’s innovative approach to solving sleep struggles intertwines Hormonal Health and nervous system regulation. To focus on the deeper reasons so many of us lie awake at night. Leigha is on a mission to help women lead their lives from a place of alignment and authenticity during the day. So they can go to bed feeling fulfilled, to rest easy at night.

Courtney Townley 2:37
In this episode, we explore a lot of things including the fundamentals of getting deep sleep at midlife, the inner work that is so often required to heal chronic sleep problems, tools to stop ruminating when you should be sleeping, and so much more. So without further ado, let’s get into it.

Courtney Townley 3:00
So Leigha, welcome to the Grace & Grit Podcast.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 3:03
Thank you so much for having me, Courtney.

Courtney Townley 3:05
Yeah, I’m thrilled to have you. I would love to start you where I start everybody, which is sharing a little bit of your journey, in your career and as a woman, on how you got to the space of teaching the work that you do now.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 3:18
Yeah, I’m obsessed with helping women get good sleep deep sleep at night, so that they can go and do what sets her soul on fire during the day. And my experience and how I landed here was being a great sleeper until like many women experience I had kids. And after the birth of my first son, of course, you know, in, you know, anticipate sleep disturbances with having a new baby, but I didn’t know how much it would profoundly impact me. And it really did and really threw me for a loop, particularly because about three to four months postpartum, I returned to work.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 3:59
So as a naturopathic doctor, I was managing my own practice and a clinic at the time, I was also trying to adjust to life as a new mom, you know, maintain a relationship, obviously, in connection with my husband and take care of myself. And we were doing a massive home renovation at the time. So lots of things happening as you do, right. And I did not know we did not, but we had a cat, like hid it because she’s like, What is this baby? And what is all of this noise? Yeah.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 4:29
And so you just really can’t understand how much of an impact these types of things have on a nervous system. And so when my son started sleeping through the night, I was still struggling. So he would sleep through and I would still wake up and I would struggle to get back to sleep if he was sleeping and I woke up or if I did happen to get up with him and was trying to go back to sleep. And then at one point, I remember I hadn’t slept for longer than like an hour and a half. I would just have like such fragmented broken sleep, and I was feeling so

Dr. Leigha Saunders 5:00
All broken, I would wake up in the morning and just feel exhausted and anxious and then really have to like, pull myself together to get through the day and just be on this like on this train of like, okay, just one foot in front of the other one hour at a time to looking forward to that, okay, maybe tonight tonight, I’m gonna have a good sleep, only to then have anticipatory anxiety about going to sleep, and then struggling all over again. And so this was such a foreign experience for me. And looking back, there’s probably an element to of burnout to some degree that I didn’t recognize.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 5:34
And so when I was connecting with my own naturopathic doctor at the time, and saying, like, I don’t feel like myself, how, and when am I going to get this back? She was like, are you sleeping? And I said, No, it’s still not my norm, I’m still not sleeping green. She’s like, Okay, we have to do everything we can to get your sleep back on track. And that’s when I really started to dive into the research and I started to unpack all of the options that we have available to us. Because up until then I thought, like sleep is just something that happens, right? Like everybody sleeps.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 6:07
So when we go to bed, you just sleep or you don’t. I really even as a naturopathic doctor with so many years of school one, I don’t remember us ever actually in depth about sleep medicine, and also like all of the things that we can do to really impact and support someone who’s struggling. And so I was learning a lot of things for the first time. And as I learned how every aspect of our health is connected to sleep and sleep impacts every aspect of our health, and how women in particular are more than twice as likely to suffer from sleep disturbances compared to men, particularly as we navigate hormone changes like postpartum and PMS and perimenopause and menopause. And when I started to uncover this, and look at all the options, which are truly mind body, and such a beautiful approach that we can bring into medicine, of course, even including integrative and conventional options. I was like, Why is no one talking about this.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 7:06
And I started to realize how many of my patients were also struggling. And the patients who weren’t getting better, were often the ones who struggle with sleep. And when the patients who did get better, were really vital. Like they didn’t have sleeping issues. And so when we started weaving together, what I started doing for myself to fix my broken sleep, and it started impacting them. And they started coming back to me and saying, Okay, I’m feeling better, like, I haven’t slept this well, and so long, I didn’t know I could sleep this good at this age. Or I thought there was nothing I could do. And now I really understand how my hormones impact my sleep or my stress or what I can do. It was a game changer. And so I was like, Okay, I’m all in on this, because so many women struggle unnecessarily. And when we do get a good night’s sleep, it changes everything. Oh, my

Courtney Townley 7:54
gosh, it does, I always say there’s nothing a good night’s sleep can’t help soften at least a little bit, right? Whether that’s on a biochemical level, or a psychological level, or relationship challenge, like it really has the power to soften so much. And I love that you have a heart for this conversation. Because as someone who really heavily leans into the behavior, change conversation, I really feel that it is so hard to do the work and I would say almost borderline impossible to do the work of behavior change when you’re living in a state of consistent sleep deprivation, emotionally, like you you mentioned and kind of summarize so beautifully. The magic of health and well being happens when we’re sleeping. Yeah, so I love and also being a naturopathic physician, there’s so many different focuses I think you could have had, and so to come to this foundational piece is is it’s just awesome. And you’re right, it’s so needed, because there are so many women suffering with sleep challenges.

Courtney Townley 8:56
So before we get into like, all of the things because this is such a layered conversation, can you set the stage for us in terms of like, how do we know we are sleeping enough? And what because I know we always reach for recommendations like you should be getting eight hours of sleep a night, which I don’t necessarily know is true for everybody. But what are some of the indicators? Women should be looking for that number one, they’re getting enough and that their quality is up to snuff?

Dr. Leigha Saunders 9:26
Yeah, absolutely. So to know if you’re getting enough is as simple as waking up feeling rested. So if you are going to bed and waking up in the morning and you feel like you’ve had a good night’s sleep, but the the time is actually less important. Of course there are standards like yes, most people do need between seven to nine hours. Less than seven hours of sleep on a regular nightly basis is considered sleep deprivation in the middle of medical literature, which when I first learned that I was like when I think sleep deprivation thinking like three, four hours but it’s anything less than Seven and a lot of people are getting less than seven hours on a regular basis. So yes, the timing is important.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 10:07
However, it’s also important for you to know your body. And if you get six and a half hours of sleep, and you truly do feel rested, without an over reliance on coffee or other stimulants are like things to keep you going, then that may be adequate sleep for you. And so that’s a really important part to just check in with your body and monitor over time. The quality of sleep should look like falling asleep easily. And so typically falling asleep between five and 20 minutes. And we don’t want you to watch the clock, because that can create more anticipation and anxiety.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 10:41
But knowing that you’ve fallen asleep fast enough, or within that timeframe, typically looks like not thinking about falling asleep, meaning you get into bed, maybe you’re reading ideally, there’s no screens in your in your bed, or doing something like a you know, a meditation or a guided imagery. And then you just fall asleep without thinking like, oh, how long has it been? Am I going to struggle tonight? Should I check the clock or other thoughts about your day. So if you’re having those types of thoughts, it’s probably been longer than 15 to 20 minutes, which is typically too long. We shouldn’t be lying in bed trying to fall asleep for that long. Yeah. And then ideally, we fall asleep easily. And we stay asleep throughout the night for the duration that again allows you to wake up and feel rested and restored in the morning, you might wake up and turn over rollover, use a bathroom, come back to bed.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 11:31
As long as you fall asleep again, in that window of time where you’re just like rolling over and closing your eyes again and falling back to sleep without thinking about it. It’s not a problem. It’s when you’re tossing and turning in lying awake for any period of time that again allows you to actually initiate cognitive function like you’re starting to think about things in the middle of the night, that typically is a problem. And any wake up longer than five minutes in the night is actually associated with a cortisol surge. And so that’s part of why our brain starts to become so activated in the night because the cortisol, one of cortisol jobs is to encourage our brain to scan our environment for perceived threats. And so there’s no lion, tiger or bear in your bedroom. But if there is a surge of cortisol, then sometimes we’re thinking about the lion, tiger or bear that is like our agenda or to do lists the conflict in our relationship, our finances, whatever it is that’s on your heart and mind as a source of stress.

Courtney Townley 12:28
Yeah, definitely. I love that. And it’s interesting, isn’t it? Like, I remember when I was younger, it was almost like a badge of honor to see how little sleep I could get away with, like, I was almost proud that Oh, I only slept four hours last night. And I’m fine. I wasn’t fine. But of course deluding myself into thinking that. But now like being almost closer to 50, it’s so interesting that my psychology around all of it is so deeply shifted, I need so much more sleep than I ever have needed in my life. And I think a lot of that is because I have more stress in my life than I’ve ever had. And I’m also more active than I’ve ever been.

Courtney Townley 13:06
And so I always remind my, my clients, too, that more demand on the body, and the brain really demands more sleep, because that’s where we do that recycling and repairing. Yes. Yeah. Which is so important. So what are some of the tale tell, like you mentioned, obviously, not being able to get to sleep within a short period of time? What are some of the other indicators that we might be struggling with getting quality sleep, because I know a lot of people who do sleep quite a, you know, a lot of hours, but they don’t feel rested, they might feel agitated, but what are some of the other things that might be an indicator to them that sleep is actually a bigger problem than they might know.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 13:50
It’s a great point. So if you are sleeping a lot, and actually, we could even start with saying, it’s important to understand that the time you spent in bed, that the time you spend in bed is not the same as your total sleep time. And I know that sounds so obvious, but people will say like, oh, I go to bed at 10 and I wake up at six, I get eight hours of sleep, you’re never asleep for 100% of the time. So it’s always important to understand that we want your time in in bed to be really efficient, meaning the time you’re asleep spending asleep in your bed compared to the total amount that you’re lying in your bed should be about 85%. So 85% of the time you’re in bed, you should be asleep or more. And so when we lie in bed awake for too long, then we start associating our bed with a place of where we are awake. And then we kind of can go through these cycles of like longer, lighter sleep periods, wake up, lie awake there and kind of like go back to sleep and it’s a really inefficient process and that’s not going to leave you feeling restored. Yeah, right.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 14:56
So, body clocks are really anchored. In most people, however, in people who do have chronic sleep issues, then our circadian rhythm will start to become dysregulated. A little bit. So there’s often overlap and people who have insomnia and who will also have circadian rhythms. So if you’re familiar with jetlag, that’s one version of a circadian rhythm disruption. And so if you aren’t in tune with your own circadian rhythm or Chrono type, then that can be really, that can impact your sleep so much. So personally, I’m in early to bed early to rise. And we tend to spend the first half of our night in deep sleep in that non REM. And then from about 1am onwards from for someone who sleeps from like nine to 10, to five to six, let’s say in that second half of the night, you’re going to be spending more time in REM, and later sleep stages that’s appropriate.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 15:52
Now, Rem is really closely linked to body clock time. So if you stay up late and go to bed at midnight, or 1am, when normally you go to bed at nine or 10, you’re going to bypass for the most part, not completely, but for the most part, almost all of your deep sleep. And you’re going to jump into REM, which is the stage of sleep in which you drink, but it’s not the deepest stage of sleep. And so in that sense, it’s like when you’re looking at okay, well I get enough sleep if you’re not in line with that body clock and circadian rhythm. And if you’re bypassing certain stages in timing in which you would otherwise be accessing deep sleep, you may not be getting the true deep restorative benefits of sleep that you your body really needs. So that part is really, really important.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 16:39
And the other thing I would highlight is how common sleep apnea obstructive sleep apnea is, we tend to think of it as a condition and men who, you know, are overweight and big potbelly. And snore and cough, gasping their sleep. But actually, the prevalence in women is not that different. So I think it’s 23% and women and about 27% in men. So women are often under diagnosis is a problem because we won’t always present in the same way. Sometimes persistent insomnia morning headaches, depression, hypertension, or high blood pressure, restless sleep, even without the coughing, snoring gasping can those can be the cardinal signs. And if a woman goes to her family, doctor or, or physician, and complains of those things, she’s less likely to be worked out for sleep apnea, if she doesn’t have those classic symptoms of snoring and coughing and gasping and if you have some BAP Nia, you’re it’s like working out in your sleep.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 17:42
Like honestly, like imagine if I came into your room and chunked you 80 to 100 times in a night, like your body is just under so much stress that when you wake up in the morning, you’re exhausted, you’re not getting you’re not getting deep sleep at all. So

Courtney Townley 17:59
how would a woman advocate for that kind of testing or that type of diagnosis?

Dr. Leigha Saunders 18:04
Yeah, so some of the risk factors are our age. And so agent and actually hormone status. So we do see sleep disordered breathing, significantly increase with perimenopause, and in particular menopause. And there’s a multitude of factors there. But one of the reasons we think, is that we do see a change in body composition, and adipose or fat tissue distribution in menopause. And that will have an impact on the risk of sleep disordered breathing. So knowing that you’re maybe in a population or a demographic that there’s a higher risk. And if you have some of those pieces, so if your sleep is really restless, if no matter how much sleep you get, you’re never waking up, rested. If you do have headaches, dry mouth, on Waking or high blood pressure, then those are all really important signs to consider.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 18:56
And if you’ve tried everything, like if you’ve really feel like you’ve tried everything, to get better sleep, and if nothing is working, and nothing is shifting, then bringing that forward and saying, listen, like I would really like to pursue a sleep study. So a sleep study is the gold standard in order to rule that out and then at least you can make a choice with the information that you do have.

Courtney Townley 19:18
Yeah. Okay, so you mentioned right, this perimenopausal and menopausal population, which is largely who I work with, I think it’s largely who you work with as well. What are some of the other like biochemical things that show up that challenge our sleep cycle at midlife? I think it is important for women to understand that it’s there are things of course so many lifestyle things that we can do. And there’s also this underlying challenge that we’re contending with that we may not have been contending with 10 years ago.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 19:49
Yeah, so our ovarian hormones in particular are really changing. And so as we transition through perimenopause, we are not ovulating as frequently and reliably because There are a count as is lower, much lower and our ability to produce the same robust level of hormones as we may have in our earlier reproductive years is not the same. And so after we ovulate in the two week period following ovulation, we do produce progesterone. And progesterone can be very calming for the nervous system. And it can help to promote sleep. There’s no magic level of progesterone production that you necessarily have to have to have good sleep. But it’s that in that second half or luteal phase of your menstrual cycle, you have progesterone.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 20:35
And then if pregnancy doesn’t occur, then that progesterone starts to decline as estrogen. We’ll talk more about estrogen in a second. So if the presence of these hormones and then the fact that they’re going down, they’re being withdrawn that we respond to, and because of what’s happening in the ovary. I’ll save all the details. But we can have more than one egg developing at one time, and perimenopause. And then we get these cycles that are overlapping, which is why some women will have a menstrual cycle bleed and then 10 or 14 days later, all of a sudden, they’re having another one. And then they skip two months, and they’re having like, so that’s just all with what’s at play underneath the surface and how ovarian hormones are shifting. And so when those hormones are present, and then taken away and present and taken away, it’s this roller coaster ride, of impacting our mood impacting our sleep and impacting our energy. And when we know when our cycle is regular, let’s say and we can predict when that hormone decline is going to happen right in that late luteal before menstruation.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 21:41
We know things like alcohol are going to have an increased impact on the system and be more likely to impact our sleep caffeine in the same way, sleep in general is just going to be more light, potentially, and her body temperature is impacted even in a woman who is regularly menstruating. And so then when you get into the throes of perimenopause, those hormones fluctuation, they’re just more dramatic. Yeah. And so that it’s like, here’s all the hormones, and oh, no, it’s gonna take them away. And here’s a little bit No, they’re gone again. And so it just creates this, this sensation and experience for women in which they almost feel crazy, because they’re like, Well, last week, I felt fine. And this week, I can’t sleep like what I haven’t changed anything. And so what I like to say is, it’s the importance of connecting with and creating a through line. And so your hormones are going to be doing their own thing. It’s not appropriate for us to talk about, like hormone balancing, and perimenopause. That’s not a thing, we can’t override that natural process.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 22:44
But we can create a through line through using hormones, if that’s indicated for you to help keep a baseline stable level so that as your own hormones fluctuate and change, you still have a level that keeps you supported. Yeah. And that allows you to function and feel your best. And so progesterone starts to decline a little bit more quickly through perimenopause because of that loss of ovulation, and then estrogen is kind of all over the place as well. And both will play a role in mood and energy and body temperature regulation as well, and our ability to get good sleep. And so we can just I think we really appreciate those hormones, once we start to experience their loss, like we never have before. And and from that standpoint, to then consider, again, how can we create that through line for you if those things are changing over time? What do you need to support your own body to create that resilience?

Courtney Townley 23:52
Yeah. And I love that you mentioned the HRT because I’ve never want it’s a bigger conversation that’s ever been, which is such a gift, right to women going through all of this. But what do we do? Like what do we have direct control over in terms of lifestyle? And we talk about these things constantly on this Podcast, but I think we can’t hear him enough. So what are the things that we can take control of to help create that through line and help that resilience?

Dr. Leigha Saunders 24:19
Mm hmm. So timing, like I mentioned, because you absolutely have control over prioritizing your sleep, your sleep schedule, and the timing and to tap into your own body clock and rhythms, which is something I love teaching women about. And we also have control over everything we do in a day. How much you move your body, when you move your body, how you fuel your body, how much caffeine and alcohol you’re consuming, and when you’re consuming those things. How much blank space you’re giving yourself in your day to allow your thoughts to decompress and your nervous system to decompress and self regulate. And those are all of the cardinal things.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 24:57
Like if you come to me and you You’re, you know, there’s no pattern to your sleep schedule, there’s no routine in place. There’s you go go gold throughout the day, skipping lunch over caffeine, like, those are the things we’re going to work on. Because not just giving a supplement or is not, it’s not going to fix those things. It’s not fair for us to expect us to ourselves to feel our best if we don’t have the foundations in place. And I, I think that the foundations often get overlooked because they’re too they almost seem like too logical or too simple. They’re not complicated enough. Yeah.

Courtney Townley 25:33
But I appreciate this so much about you. Because I think there are so many physicians that will write scripts to just put the bandaid on the problem. And, and no one is saying that medications and hormone replacement therapy and all these things aren’t amazingly supportive in the right place for the right person and the right dosage. That being said, I think our culture today, and this isn’t just with sleep, it’s with everything. It’s with exercise, it’s with our food. We tend to overcomplicate way too soon. And so I you know, that the hill I will die on and my business is that it’s like consistency with the basics before we insert these measures that may be supportive, but can’t be as supportive as they possibly could be if we weren’t doing these other things along along with them. So yeah, I love that. So we’re graduating into more complex measures, but we’re not necessarily starting with them.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 26:33
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Because it’s not again, it’s I don’t think it’s fair. Like that’s what I see women put such high expectations on themselves, and they come in and they, you know, want to do a more we want all the things let’s say or a more complicated plan. But if if you don’t have any time for you in the day, or if it’s already a struggle for you to again, eat your lunch at a regular time while being on interrupted, like, let’s start there. Because if we jump into doing anything more complicated, just overwhelms.

Courtney Townley 27:10
Just overwhelmed. Yeah. So you just said something that I want to circle back to, which is that women not having enough time for themselves? Because I find in so many conversations, this is the very reason a lot of women are staying up late at night. Because once the kids go to bed, and once their husband is kind of doing his thing and right or their partner, it’s it is I often hear that rationalization that it’s the only time in the day that I’d have to myself. And so of course, where I poke a little bit is well, what are you doing at that time, because it’s usually not anything that’s super nurturing, in that we’re feeling super creative and awesome about we’re vegging out in front of the TV. Right? We’re scrolling on social media, we’re not doing the things that really bring us to life. But what are some other reasons? So we talked about the biochemistry, we’ve talked a little bit about the lack of alone time. What are some of the other reasons you think midlife women are struggling to get enough sleep?

Dr. Leigha Saunders 28:10
I think what you mentioned there in terms of at this point in our life, like there are so many demands on our time and attention, because we’ve got kids who are getting older and becoming more independent, we’ve got parents who are becoming older and more dependent, and often managing and supporting them in their care. So it’s almost like a sandwich. Place that you’re in, I’m taking care of both generations. And women are often meeting and engaging in the peak of their career at this point in their life. And for many women, that’s the first time that they might be experiencing health challenges or changes. And so there’s a lot that is vying for our attention.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 28:50
Or I saw one of your posts recently and said, like, here’s what I’m learning about my body. And it does change, like your ability to recover or your ability to get sleep as easily or to bounce back after a cold or a flu. Like all of those things you change. And I almost sometimes see like women beating themselves up over that, like they feel like there’s something wrong with them. I just can’t lose weight like I could when I was 25. I’m like, Yeah, but you’re not 25. Yeah, your body is different now and that’s okay. Yeah, your whole life is different. And so that is it a conversation. I think that needs to be a part of all of this because, again, it’s that through line of all of these things are going to be happening. We can’t necessarily change the stressors that you have. And or demands, maybe they’re not all stressful. Maybe you love your job, and it’s just really demanding. We can’t change though those things in every way or in all of the ways that we want to, but we can help your body respond to and manage those stressors and demands It’s more efficiently more resiliently. Yeah,

Courtney Townley 30:04
my friend I rely on always beautifully calls that your capacity right that you have the ability to expand your capacity to tolerate the total stress load of your life now doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t remove unnecessary stressors, of course, usually, by Yes, there are all these things that we’re talking about can help us expand that capacity to,

Dr. Leigha Saunders 30:25
actually, I think that’s where one piece is really important to highlight. I think women are also resistant to offloading unnecessary stressors, because there’s such a deep line of people pleasing and conditioning into being the good girl and to avoiding inconveniencing others at any point, so that we suffer ourselves. And that is something that is like, that is the work that’s, that’s that I want to die on with women because like it just it doesn’t serve anyone, when you are shortcutting, your sleep and yourself, because you’re doing everything for everyone else. It doesn’t serve you and it doesn’t allow the other person to rise to the occasion, when you over function you felt forced the other person into under functioning, they don’t feel good about that. And you don’t feel good about that. And

Courtney Townley 31:22
you just stop. And like, I want to highlight what you just said, because it’s so good. When you’re over functioning. Right? It’s it’s basically causing people around you to under function. Yes, let’s look at that from

Dr. Leigha Saunders 31:34
like, if all you do for your kids, if you do their laundry, if you do their cooking, if you pack their bags, like of course we have young kids who couldn’t do those things. But as they get older and more capable, if you don’t teach them how to do their laundry, and they go to university, they’re not going to know how to do their laundry, right. And so then if you start teaching them, then they have the skills to start becoming more independent, they get to rise to the occasion, at work, if you’re always a person who’s like jumping on the email, train, or saying like, Oh, if you need anything, just, you know, message me if you’re the first one to jump in, or do all the things because it’s faster if you do it, or it’s easier if you do it or you don’t want to have to explain how to do it, then people get conditioned into thinking that they can just message you or approach you or calling you, and you’re going to be the one to do it.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 32:18
And so then they just, you know, take the easy road, which you then get pissed off about because you’re like, why was no one else doing all this work? Why did it all fall on me. And more stress accumulates for that if you don’t sleep as well. And all the things this plays out in so many relationships, like intimate relationships to where women haven’t communicated. There’s so many reasons. Like I also want to just acknowledge how deep and complex this is, but that there’s a lack of communication, let’s say between partners. And as a woman, if you’re again, in an intimate relationship, taking on all the things doing all the invisible labor, right, taking care of the kids and the appointments and the coordination for the healthcare and the tax is like all the things. And we then struggle to like ask our partner to do something. Or if they do do something, we have a tendency to criticize them.

Courtney Townley 33:16
There’s that,

Dr. Leigha Saunders 33:17
and then they get frustrated and pissed off. Because they’re like, well, even when I do do something, it’s never good enough anyway, so then they don’t do it, they suddenly withdrawal. And then you feel like you have to do more. And then you get pissed off because they’re not doing it like and this whole thing. And then I’m like, Of course you can’t sleep next to the person that you’re lying in bed with. Because you are resentful towards them. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 33:40
So like, there’s, there’s so many layers, so many. And when we start to unpack that, and when, like the work that I love doing, like yes, all the things, we talked about the sleep schedules and supplements and whatnot. But when we get into the inner work, and when we really help women connect with what they desire, and who they truly are in their authentic selves and what they want in their life, and in their relationships, and in their work, like when you know, you’re meant for more, and you start going after those things. That’s what allows you to live in alignment. And that’s what allows you to really feel like you can rest easy at the end of the day, because you’re like, Yes, this is this is like I’m living my life versus when you’re staying up late. And scrolling or binging is typically because you’re like, I’m so pissed off that I didn’t get any time to me today. And the time that I do have in my day is always taking care of everyone and everything else. So I’m just gonna distract myself. I’m just going to kind of like numb out here. And that doesn’t feel good.

Courtney Townley 34:42
No. Yeah, this is the language of the Grace & Grit show for sure. Like we talked about this so much that this is the root of the issue, which is what I love so much about you. It’s like, I mean, we do talk always about the importance of biochemistry, we can’t ignore it right that your body has certain biochemical needs, it needs fulfill. All that being said, the root of so many of the biochemical challenges is coming from this deeper, or this lack of deeper inner work. Our theme inside of our community this month is all about boundaries Graceville boundary setting. And it’s it is so fascinating to see, like, where the lack of boundaries are showing up for people.

Courtney Townley 35:23
And really, I think even more powerfully what they’re recognizing it’s costing them to not have boundaries. And it’s a complex topic, like you said, because of the people pleasing tendencies of things we learned in childhood, right? We’ve been practicing these patterns for a really long time. And even fundamentally, what we believe boundaries are like a lot of people think of boundaries as like this bad thing. And that, you know, it’s going to hurt other people. And yes, other people are going to be very uncomfortable, probably with you asking them to apply a bit more effort. Nobody necessarily wants that. But like you said, it’s a win win for both parties. Mm hmm.

Courtney Townley 36:03
Because we’re both getting so much out of it. Yeah. And that piece, too about you, when we do this level of work. It all comes back to sleep in that we’re able to put our head on the pillow at night, and feel at peace with how we lived our day. And we fall asleep within that five to eight, it was five to 15 minutes. Yeah, five to 20. Okay, five to 20 minutes. Yeah. Yeah, we’re not ruminating, we’re not gonna We’re not all jacked up from all the buffering we’ve done with the wing and the social media and the alcohol and the sugar. Yeah, it’s a very different way of living. Yeah, so good. So good. Thank you for sharing all of that. So I think this brings me to, you know, we talk, we talked a little bit touched a little bit on practices that obviously helped to support biochemistry. But in this conversation of kind of the deeper inner work that needs to be done to be able to go to sleep easily. What are some practices that you would recommend to a woman listening as really just kind of a starting place a foundational place?

Dr. Leigha Saunders 37:11
Great question. foundationally, I would say to carve out time in your day, that is that blank space. And it’s not about more like it doesn’t have to be more time, but it can be about habit stacking. So again, I hope you eat your lunch. And so when you eat your lunch, can you eat it with yourself instead of also scrolling or at your desk and responding to emails. And so if there’s something that you’re doing anyways, even if this is commuting, or walking to get your kids from school, so often we can feel pulled to make every moment of our day productive. And we can be an information input overload. And that just rams our brain and makes it it just jams our whole nervous system.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 38:01
And so if there’s small and subtle ways in which you can create more stillness, which is often very uncomfortable, if that’s not something that you’re used to, but if you can create more stillness and quiet, then you learn how to really get in touch with yourself, you have an opportunity to decompress your thoughts and filter through and check in with yourself like how am I doing? What is on my mind? And then that allows yourself to move through, you know, okay, what do I what am I going to do about this? So there’s a couple of there’s two techniques, I’ll share that I often will guide the women that I work through with. So one is something called constructive worry, which there is a study done on this, and the, the impacts were phenomenal. So the idea was that if you set aside time in your day, which like I’m saying in this blank space, to intentionally think about what you are most likely to worry about, or what might be on your mind when you’re trying to sleep but struggling. Ideally, you do this well in advance of bedtime.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 39:05
So let’s say you go for a walk at any point in the day, or even just sit and journal and reflect but you give yourself permission to actually worry, because so often we’re like, pushing it aside and disregarding it and trying to distract ourselves from something that’s on our mind. And then the constructive piece comes in through actually then identifying what is the one next step, what is one next action you can take, that will help you move towards minimizing, reducing or resolving the worry. And then when that worry comes back, you just focus on the fact that you have your next action step identified, and that’s what you can do. And so I one patient example comes to mind it was patient who was struggling with sleep. She was also trying to get her mom into a care home. And so there’s lots on her mind. She’s trying to coordinate so much medical care for her mom, and what we had her do This was like, what’s the next step? So it was like, Okay, I’m going to spend one hour tomorrow, emailing and calling places. And she couldn’t control what happened in that hour. Right?

Dr. Leigha Saunders 40:10
It wasn’t like, Okay, I have to get my mom and care home. It’s like, No, I can control that I’d spend one hour making effort towards that thing. So I like to give that example, because people are like, Well, I’m worried about it. If I knew what to do about it, I would do it. And it’s like, well, maybe it is making an appointment, maybe it is researching more information, maybe it is having a difficult conversation with someone. So those are the one. I think it’s such a powerful way that we can just bring more mindfulness and intention into our day and check in with ourselves, and then take action. It’s not about just sitting there and stewing. But it’s like, okay, then what do we do about it, that’s the constructive piece. And then there’s an acronym that I’ll walk patients through called calm.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 40:53
And so the analogy I often use is like, when you have a toddler, if you had a toddler or a puppy, and they’re like, at your feet, and while you’re otherwise engaged in something, and they want your attention, and you’re like, Yeah, you know, like, just second, just a second, what happens is, their behavior and emotion tends to escalate. And so then you have to eventually stop what you’re doing turn to them, then de escalate, and then attend to what they need. And so our emotions, and our feelings are like that, too. And so if all day you’re on Google, go extroverted mode, taking care of everyone and everything else and not checking in with yourself. Those emotions and feelings are like rising. And there’s a bottleneck of fact, that happens at the end of the day, if you haven’t had opportunity to decompress. And that’s when your heads on the pillow. And so instead, when you’re feeling that way, this doesn’t take long. And you can also do this, if you’re lying in bed awake at night, the calm acronym is C to connect with your breath. So really bring awareness, don’t count 10, deep breaths in and out. And then A is for ask, like, what is on my mind? What am I feeling and acknowledge?

Dr. Leigha Saunders 41:58
Because so often, we don’t actually give ourselves like full permission to acknowledge what we’re actually thinking and feeling. And so it’s like, I’m really scared, I’m really anxious, I’m really pissed off, I’m really sad. anything, it just allows yourself to actually like meet yourself where you’re at. And then L is for allowing and letting there be space. And you said something earlier about, like just allowing anything to soften even even a bit, right? That blank space, or a good night’s sleep, right is like allows anything to soften. So maybe you’re not sleeping, but you can allow there to be space for what might be interrupting your sleep.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 42:35
And typically, that does happen through like staying connected with your breath and just connecting with the sensations that are in your body. Because so often, we’re just all in our heads. And if we can get back into our body be like, Okay, this feeling that’s like the heaviness in my chest or the sinking feeling in my stomach, like, what is that? Actually, okay? I’m like asking my body tell me, and I’m acknowledging it, I’m indulging that toddler, the puppy that wants my attention, so it doesn’t escalate. And then M in calm is moving forward with intention or alignment. So it’s similar to the construct of worry of like, okay, I’m feeling this feeling. I have this thought, What is my body asking my intuition, my higher self, even my mind? Like, what is it that I need to do now to move forward to allow there to be more space or create some resolution or to address how and what I’m feeling. And then again, you just like, come back to focusing on that piece and what you have control and what you have action over.

Courtney Townley 43:32
I love it. I love both of those. They’re so great. And that the first piece you mentioned, of just having that blank space, we call it white space of just not nothingness in the day, right being or being with one task, and being all in with that one thing, and not allowing 500 Other things to try to be done at the same time. That is a very difficult thing for women to do. And I can’t tell you the number of women I’ve coached over the years where that is where they have to apply grit. It’s fascinating. What if we think about it? What is the practice of sleep, it’s a practice of letting go it’s a practice of allowing a ton of white space with doing nothing. And so I think the way that we operate in our day, pollinating our day with those moments of blank space can help so much with the ultimate letting go and doing nothing, which is that sleep cycle. Yeah, absolutely. So good. And I love the calm acronym. That’s that’s really great. Okay, so what is something you would love to leave listeners with as a closing?

Dr. Leigha Saunders 44:39
Hmm? You don’t have to suffer? Yeah,

Courtney Townley 44:44
please don’t.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 44:46
Yeah, that’s the narrative that I received first, it was like, Well, other women. This is just what happens. Other women do it. They figure it out. You know, like sleep just goes when you become a mom or you know, and You don’t. And yeah, it might mean that there is some discomfort in what you have to move through in order to get to the point in your life where you do feel like you’re living in alignment or things are more spacious for you, right? Because sometimes it does mean asking for help or delegating or letting go or having difficult conversations. But I always like to say choose your heart, right? Because those things can be hard, but give you the result that you’re looking for, or the way that you’re currently living is also hard and not giving you what you’re looking for. Yeah.

Courtney Townley 45:40
What I hear so clearly in that, too, and this is this is just really beautiful, that the that inner work, making that time for yourself to connect, to inquire to decide on next steps. It’s, it’s to me, it always comes back to self-leadership. Right, that’s what I’m such a proponent of is teaching that self-leadership piece, and it’s, it’s being able to insource in order to outsource. Like in the wellness industry, we have that so backwards. We’re always outsourcing like that’s our first mode of operation is to outsource responsibility to someone else who knows better. And I think if we actually flipped that on its head and started like checking in with ourselves and getting to know ourselves better and healing the relationship with ourselves on a deeper level, we would actually make more informed decisions around outsourcing. And I know you didn’t say all that directly. But But seriously, that’s what I heard. That’s really a great thing to be closing with. So how do people find out more about you? And the lovely work that you do in the world? Yeah,

Dr. Leigha Saunders 46:44
absolutely. I love helping women understand their bodies, understand their hormones, and really, obviously get deep sleep at night, like I said, so that they can go and do what sets their soul on fire during the day. If we had more women increase their capacity to do what they love and do what they’re dreaming of the world would be a different place. And the population the women that we work with are so often blindsided and being disrupted in the throes of perimenopause. That’s often a great starting point, I think really understanding your hormone health and its connection to your sleep. So you can support both aspects. So we’re going to link everybody up with a free mini course I have on understanding and decoding your hormones and sleep patterns so you can get started there. And I love hanging out on Instagram. So if you are also on Instagram and you feel called to connect, I work with women in a clinical and coaching capacity, feel free to send me a message and I’d love to connect and hear how you want to understand your sleep and hormones.

Courtney Townley 47:49
Love it. And we will leave all that information on the page on our website where this podcast will be found. And yeah, thank you so much for the work that you do in the world and thanks for making time to being here.

Dr. Leigha Saunders 48:01
Yeah, of course. My pleasure. Thanks Courtney.

Courtney Townley 48:09
Thank you for listening to the grace and grit Podcast. It is time to mend the fabric of the female health story. And it starts with you taking radical responsibility for your own self care. You are worth the effort and with a little grace and grit anything is possible.